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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  June 10, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT

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be any life in other republican candidates once he does his number on them? it should be interesting. then again, trump often is, even when he is being irresponsible, which when it comes to politics, he often is. and that is "hardball" for now. thank you for joining us, all in, with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight, on "all in" the issue of race. >> there is watching the video the white people were not talked to, told to get on the ground, told to get put in cuffs? >> my interview with the white police officer who said that the mckinney pd has a race problem. and now, the gop begins to realize the looming disaster if obamacare goes down at the supreme court. >> there is something i have to say just cynical about the ceaseless partisan efforts to roll back progress into --
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>> plus, an obscure law that could finally bring justice for tamir wright. and more on the criticism of the iraq war. >> we know there are things we do not know. >> "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, breaking news out of mckinney, texas, where the police response to a teenage pool party on friday started again the debate about race and policing. the corporal seen attacking a 15-year-old girl on a cell phone video viewed 9 million times has now resigned from the mckinney police force. a ten-year veteran of the police force was on paid leave since it came to light. his resignation was announced. the police chief strongly denounced the actions. >> i want to say that the
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actions of casebolt seen are not defensible. our policies, training and practice do not support his actions. he came into the call out of control. and as the video shows, was out of control during the incident. i had 12 officers on the scene. and 11 of them performed according to their training. >> while the internal investigation of casebolt has now been dropped, the police chief said the broader inquiry into what happened is continuing. >> we're continuing the investigation and continuing the allegations that are being presented to us. and any part of a criminal investigation regarding anyone will take a matter of time for us to work through all of those allegations and those people who have come forward. >> and amid conflicting stories about what happened at the pool before police arrived, including
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allegations that some white adults may have verbally and physically assaulted black teens at the party. mckinney's mayor insisted the situation was anomaly. >> it is not indicative of the community as a whole. we have a good community, including our neighborhood, and good public servants including our police department and our fire department. the actions of any one individual do not define our community as a whole. >> joining me now, msnbc national reporter joy reid. and joy, i'm very curious about what happened there. i have seen many interviews with the residents of this particular home area, this particular neighborhood who said look, there is no race issue here. and a lot of people defending the police. what does it feel like there? >> you know, it is interesting, chris, we spoke with a small number of local residents, african-american.
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they came to the press conference and wanted to be here. in some cases they even yelled out questions for the chief and mayor. and people here are very supportive of this community. one couple we spoke with said they raised both of their daughters who now are in college out of state here. they said it is a wonderful place to live. that they did express shock when this happened. they had not had that experience here. of course, you will also talk to people who say that this is a problem that needed to be unearthed. that sometimes these problems still remain under the surface. i can tell you one local resident who is actually a local barber who said he has been at every press conference, and incident, he said the young woman thrown to the ground is a daughter of someone he knows. he said he doesn't believe this is the end and wants to see prosecution of this former police officer. every person we spoke to said they were relieved that this person will no longer be patrolling. people say they feel safer
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knowing he will not patrol the streets of mckinney, but express concern that he could go on to other police departments. >> all right, stay with us, i want to bring with us mr. schulte, a former police officer. and now an attorney. i saw comments you made about the issues facing this police department. particularly of racial bias. what is your experience of this police force? >> well, you know, back when i left in 2004, we had probably one of the worst crimes the city has ever experienced. a homicide, and there were race tensions back then. so i don't know if there was something that was ingrained in that police department as time has gone on. you know, probably what happened on friday, the 911 calls that were made described the people who were supposed to be there and who were not supposed to be there. so when police arrived they were looking at race as an indicator on who was supposed to be there, i think that was a mistake.
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i don't know if it was racially motivated or bias, but that was what happened. one corporal was trying to determine who should have been there or not been there. >> yes, this is interesting talking about race in that neighborhood. take a listen. >> i had never seen racial problems in this community. never heard of them until now. this is not a race thing. yes, there may have been wrongdoing and that needs to be handled with those people and that situation and not involve innocent people in the community. >> it does seem to me, joy, it is very hard to watch that video and come to the conclusion that -- who does live there. and i don't. it is very hard to watch that video and listen to the testimony by everyone there including one of the teenagers, a white teenager that we spoke to on this program last night, grace jones, that that is true. >> yeah, and it's interesting, because we did especially speak
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before the press conference off the record with one of the officers who was sort of acting in the role of public information officer who made the point. you know, a lot of people were talking about this. those two men walking among the police officers. it does appear that they were actually directing police as to who was supposed to be there and who was not, because they had some association with the homeowner's association. so it is possible people were taking their cues from white individuals saying that person belongs there, and that one does not. so i don't know how they knew, most of the people lived in the community or went to school with the kids. these were all neighborhood kids. they were not all outside kids. so i believe you do have people being very defensive of this community, defensive of the racial climate and the neighborhood. but you definitely see from the video it is clear who is being targeted. and i think we need to talk
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about some of the civilian adults who were involved. not only in instigating, but also directing police who they should be targeting. >> yes, and mr. schulte, part of this -- we are dealing with children here. the police officers have to be aware of the age of teenagers they're handling. i said if you were to do that to your own child who was 14, conduct yourself in that way in public in front of people and there was video evidence, you would find yourself very quickly either brought up on charges or talking to somebody at your door ready to take your child away from you. it would be little excuse to say well, they were mouthing off or were not listening to what i told them to do. because you can't do that to a 14-year-old. >> i'll tell you since friday, the video service on sunday, it does not matter what the kids were saying to the police officer, it doesn't matter what happened at the party. how the officer reacted, by the language he was using and the force he was using would never be appropriate.
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the chief said it was not defensible. he did not follow the policy and that is true. i don't think anybody could really defend his actions, somebody, he let his emotions get the best of him. i used to be a police officer, we're trained to keep our emotions in check. as the police chief said he was out of control from the very beginning. it will be interesting to figure out now that we will not have a full investigation on corporal casebolt, it will be interesting to see what happened friday night and the procedures and how those things were followed throughout the weekend. >> yes, that is a question for you, joy, because now there is kind of a battling accounts of the actual instigating incident that produced this blow-up. when we spoke to the young woman yesterday she said that essentially a few adults there, white adults started saying racist things, get back to section 8 housing. another friend got involved and struck her friend. they were actually the first ones to assault somebody.
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the people showed up and were cursing and being loud in this thing. so the question is where does this go next? >> yeah, and that is a question we did ask, standing before the press conference began, whether or not some of those incidents will be investigated. there was a name of one particular woman and her sister that were all over social media now, associated with bank of america. and they're looking into whether or not this was their employee associated with it. and now they say they have to take complaints. they can't make somebody be a complainant. in a lot of cases what they say it's the adults that are more likely now coming forward and speaking up and saying hey, i was assaulted, rather than the teenager. so in this case now what you have is the very teenagers who are telling many people in the media that they were struck or that they were injured or that an adult attacked them they are
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not actually the ones coming forward and necessarily filing complaints. i do want to tell you quickly, chris, going on behind me right now. i don't know if it is in frame. there is a meeting about to take place at the united methodist church. there are a couple of pastors here doing the african-american and white clergy coming together, a gathering trying to heal the community. on the question you asked, yes, there are potential open investigations. the investigation they did not talk about however, the one people are talking about is whether or not eric casebolt is out of legal jeopardy. because even though he resigned, there is still an ongoing case. >> and the question is whether he will face legal charges for what we all saw him do on the video. >> yes, that is a question, because there is a crime called official oppression, a class a misdemeanor, where they put somebody under arrest or detain
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them, i'll tell you if it is a class a misdemeanor, if he is not successful in beating it he can never be a police officer in the state of texas again. so it will be interesting to see if the police department continues a criminal investigation with eric casebolt, with another law enforcement agency in colin county. i don't think they can be done with this, just on that matter. still ahead, donald rumsfeld and his comments on iraq. and more on two separate security threats today, a very scary moment. and the president shredding those who seek to push off his accomplishments. >> i have to say there is something deeply cynical about the ceaseless partisan attempts to roll back progress. motrin helps you be an unstoppable, i-can-totally-do-this- all-in-one-trip kind of woman. when pain tries to stop you, there's motrin. motrin works fast to stop pain where it
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all right, here is donald rumsfeld boasting about the chances in iraq. >> people said that they could
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not be replaced with the democratic system. is somebody smart enough to know that the iraqis are unique on the face of the earth that they're not capable of living in a free system? i don't know that. i hope it's wrong. >> now years later he is trying to walk it back, facing harsh criticism he is trying to walk that walk back, back, i think. more ahead .
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you know, in any job any profession image matters. i want some gray...but not too much. only touch of gray uses oxygen to gently blend away some gray but not all for that perfect salt and pepper look. satisfaction guaranteed. just you and the look you want. just for men touch of gray supreme court may be about to hand the republican party a political decision, something that could destroy a feature of the obamacare. but what could be the outcome could be their worst nightmare.
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and nobody knows that better than the man whose signature accomplishment hangs in the balance. >> there is something i have to say, just deeply cynical about the ceaseless, endless partisan attempts to roll back progress. i mean, i understood folks being skeptical or worried before the law passed and there was not a reality there to examine. but once you see millions of people having health care, once you see that all the bad things that were predicted didn't happen you would think that -- it would be time to move on. >> those remarks from a forceful and emotional speech at the catholic health association day coming a day after the president called out the supreme court for accepting what they say was a dubious challenge to what he says has become part of the fabric of america. >> this should be an easy case.
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frankly, it probably should not have even been taken up. >> the case is king versus burwell, saying that federal health care subsidies are available to americans who bought their policies through an exchange established by the state. more than 30 states did not themselves establish an exchange, instead allowing the federal government to establish one for them through health care.org. anyone who got health care.org is not eligible for a subsidy, because of an exchange by the state. there are a lot of problems including those that wrote the law saying it was not meant to be interpreted that case. it did not stop the supreme court from taking the case, which should be heard from soon. 6 million would lose subsidies, and the obamacare could fall apart. it would be for those people and everyone else around the health
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care industry a catastrophic outcome. but as the president pointed out congress of course could pass a one-sentence provision and avert the disaster for millions of americans. the one sentence fix is simple legislatively, but nearly impossible because the conservative base could vote against anything that could be seen as cementing the obamacare. if the court rules that way republicans could be widely blamed for refusing to help americans whose lives may have been made a lot worse. kim, here is my read on the politics of this. i think during the high water mark of gruber video comments, there was a statement like we found the smoking gun and will win this case. and there was a lot of confidence. and at least as i read it, there seems to be waning confidence in the outcome and also increasing
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worry about okay, if we win, what does the next day look like? do you think there is going to be a next day bill ready to drop that just fixes the problem? >> it's hard to predict exactly what is going to happen. the republican party as you see by the size of the republican presidential field is not a top-down system. it's a very sort of democratic robust debate oriented system at the moment, unlike the democratic party. so could the question we have now, what approach will they take? there is a couple different things. is there a full replacement idea to do? and is there a bridge and should we combine them? some people are saying well, this is a chance if obamacare is really falling apart as the lead-in package suggests, that is a chance to give a packet saying we want these people, because some of these people
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can't afford health insurance without some sort of tax credit. something like that. give them something together with that that strips away the first parts of obamacare that made health care so expensive. the gop is not at a point where there is so much consensus on that. but if the gop comes up with a plan i don't think the president is willing to sign it. i think he would rather score a political victory, dragging out this over 18 months -- >> so the devil is in the detail, let's just say the health care inflation has decreased, slowed to the lowest levels in years since the law has been past. now you can say the law has nothing to do with that, that is a bunch of other factors, that is an argument. but in terms of numbers we're not seeing inflating health care under the care act, just as where the facts stand. the devil is in the details, my question is if you're a republican governor, the day after king versus burwell comes down, you will have all of these states with exchanges saying all of a sudden my health care went up $800 or $400 or $300, who will fix it?
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and i think what embodies this problem, where they say 6 million people lose their health care coverage yet potus continues to deny that obamacare is bad for the american people. >> it was an interesting message by john thune, one that i would not have advocated. but you do have the fact that a lot of health care plans were out lawed. it became illegal to buy more affordable health care plans because they said these were essential benefits. plans i don't want to buy. i don't want contraception coverage or fertility treatments, some of these things that by the health care became more expensive and the subsidies were offset by that. or you had to buy health insurance when you didn't want to buy health insurance, a supreme court case. and those became more expensive. so what does the government do? those are questions of whether
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or not the republicans can get a good thoughtful response. because you can have health care for people to afford. tax deductions for the individual market without creating the exchange. because i see the exchange as a way for the government to control our health insurance and that is exactly what i don't like, what i don't think is progress. >> yes, i understand where control, others say regulate the bottom end, i have personal experience with some of it. that is going to be -- the point is the day after the case if it comes down to it for the plaintiff, is what is the plan that republicans say? and i think it will be very interesting to see what mitch mcconnell has to say. thank you for joining us. joining me now, david axelrod, former senior adviser to president obama. this is interesting, because you're viewing it from the other side where you have a stake in
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it, getting the law passed. it does present a political problem for republicans if they win king/burwell, because they have all of these people who the press can go interview who are screwed, frankly and they have to come up with a solution. >> well, i think if the case goes against the law, which i really don't think it is going to. but if it goes against the law i believe the republicans will be the dogs who caught the car. i think it's a political disaster for them. i think indicative of that is the proposal that ron johnson made, the senator from wisconsin, who suggested they pass a bridge and support the subsidies through the next election. no coincidence that he is up for re-election in 2016. and i believe it is telling that he wants to bridge the subsidies. but the fact is, chris, they have had five years to come up with a plausible alternative to the health care act and they have not done so.
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so it is unlikely they will do so overnight. >> that is an interesting point. you have a fair number of republicans in cycle 2016 who are facing competitive races. and that is a really good point. that they will be really out spoken, particularly if they're in state where they suspect a democratic presidential nominee will carry to get something done. >> right, and unlike 2014, 2016, you have a lot of republican incumbents in these blue states, in illinois, and wisconsin and ohio and pennsylvania and florida and new hampshire. all of whom are going to feel some jeopardy if the law goes -- if this law is unravelled. >> i think it will be very hard because the nature of this challenge is, in such clear bad faith. i mean, if there is no principle at stake at least in the mandate challenge you could argue there is a sort of principle in what the government could and could
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not regulate in terms of commerce. in this case they're trying to destroy the law and found a way they believe they could do it. it is very hard for republicans to make the case of exactly what this is about, other than getting obamacare. >> well, that is exactly what it is about. and you're absolutely right. i thought it was telling that olympia snow, who opposed the law, said everybody in congress knew that these subsidies were to go to anyone in any exchange. everyone knows that. so the supreme court would have to deliver a very cramped ruling practice of taking legislative intent into account in order to grant the plaintiffs the complaint here. that is why i think they will not do that. but if they do, you know -- as a political matter i think it's worse for the republicans than it is for the president. i think we ought to dismiss the political argument for a second, though, and say for millions of americans it will be a disaster.
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for the system itself it will be a catalclysmic shock. so it's not good for the country if the supreme court goes the other way on this. >> oh, it will be total chaos and tremendous angst, for people who may be sick or taking chemotherapy, a million different possibilities. >> i was going to say, you know, i said this often, i have a child who has fought -- battled with epilepsy all of her life, started when she was 7 months old, and fought seizures. i was a reporter at the tribune and i had insurance, and almost went bankrupt because the medications didn't cover some of the treatments and medications she needed. and there are many, many americans like that in that situation, i don't think we want to go back to that. >> david axelrod, thank you for joining us. >> thank you.
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>> and coming up, he never thought democracy was a realistic goal. >> with iraq, with its size and its history is able to move towards a path of representative democracy, however bumpy the road may be, then indeed the impact in the region and indeed the world could be dramatic. through progressive, you'll save a bundle! [ laughs ] jamie. right. make a bad bundle joke a buck goes in the jar. i guess that's just how the cookie bundles. now, you're gonna have two bundles of joy! i'm not pregnant. i'm gonna go. [ tapping, cash register dings ] there you go. [ buzzing ] bundle bee coming! it was worth it! saving you a bunenenenenressive.
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the order came without
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warning. a bomb threat phoned into washington, d.c. police led to unprecedented evacuations shortly after 2:00 p.m. during the daily televised briefing. startling members of the press corps, just steps from the west wing. >> it was an unnerr r ing where two separate bomb threats were issued. secret service evacuating the press corps after the threat, the entire process unfolding on camera after the press was ushered outside of the west wing, and a bomb-sniffing dog was brought in. some cameras were covered during the sweep. the president was in the oval office and others were in residence but were not evacuated. after about 30 minutes the scene was cleared. today's briefing happened just hours after another phone call to the police, prompting another evacuation. >> a separate bomb threat was in
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progress on capitol hill, interrupting the events in the afternoon. >> we're clearing the floor, so if you could move in an orderly fashion, please exit as quickly as possible. thank you. >> capitol hill police searched the room looking for anything suspicious. the officers and dogs combed the hallway, but nothing was found. >> tonight, the secret service was investigating whether or not the two threats were connected. we'll be right back.
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donald rumsfeld is back-tracking from his back-tracking today. yesterday we brought the story from the former defense secretary's interview in the times when he spoke about the iraq invasion initiated by president bush in these terms. quote, i'm not one who thinks that our particular template of democracy is ideal for other countries. the conditions in iraq seem
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unrealistic, i was first concerned about it when i heard those words. now, the reaction was one of surprise, including from the journalist who wrote books on the administration. >> he was the person who was saying to the president, look this will be a lot easier than we think, and in the end they were literally saying to the president this is just going to take a couple of weeks. we're now 12 years after the invasion and we still label iraq unsolved. >> now, in a phone interview with cnn, rumsfeld said quote, when we went into iraq, my view and i thought it was probably the held view the goal was to have not saddam hussein be there and to replace saddam that would not have weapons of mass destruction and would not invade its neighbors, and be reasonably respectful of the neighbors, including the sunnis and the kurds. that was kind of the thought that i had. and joining me, currently, distinguished adjunct of the college.
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i have whiplash. >> i think one has to understand mr. rumsfeld and understand what motivated mr. rumsfeld from my perspective, from the four years i worked with secretary powell, winning the bureaucratic struggle, he lost the focus on the strategic struggle. he may have won the bureaucratic struggle with formerly my boss, but he lost the strategic picture. i think perhaps he may be looking back at the strategic picture and may be seeing something he doesn't quite like. >> and this is him now just within the last hour i guess, trying to clarify in a phone interview. take a listen. >> we were not there to be occupiers. and my concern -- i'm for democracy, but my concern about the word was that it would leave the impression in that country
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inaccurately that the united states intended to impose its form of democracy on their country. >> i mean, the record is the record. they talked about democracy all the time. >> the record shows that what we did was send a whole lot of young mostly republican, mostly energetic dynamic, but no-nothing people to baghdad. and i would include in that, with respect to gaulter, jerry bremmer, and asked them to build the democracy in that place. that is what we did, rumsfeld was fully aware of it as was everybody else and he is looking back on it now and saying essentially he was not is sheer nonsense. >> and you know the point to me, one thing that frustrates me, there is a lot that frustrates me. also the idea that democracy was ever really the intention in any meaningful way. you made the point when you
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peeled the curtain back, you had 27-year-old right wings trying to work with the parliament. the question is you would not put those people in charge of the war part. you're putting them in part of this part. shows what you actually care about. >> i think you're right in many respects. i have always thought that this was a camouflage for our real purpose, which was essentially to make sure that potentially 300 to 400 billion barrels of oil got access to the world. was not controlled by a dictator. was it a reasonable price? and consistently available for our allies and ourselves? that has always been my view of the strategic purpose of that war. and look at what we've done to that with respect to that strategic purpose. we've made a mess. >> yeah, i mean, you have refineries under control of isis now. >> you do. and you also have government in
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baghdad that had plans to be at almost saudi arabia levels of production per year in six or seven years. and with the political situation and the security situation the way it is now you're never going to make that. so we actually made the situation worse with regard to what was an essential strategic objective, access to the oil under the deserts of iraq. >> cold lawrence wilkerson, always a pleasure. thank you for joining us. thank you. still ahead, an extraordinary maneuver in cleveland as they seek justice for tamir rice, with an obscure ohio law, one of the people joins me next. here's a little healthy advice. eat well live well, and take of what makes you you. right down to your skin with aveeno® aveeno® daily moisturizing lotion with the goodness of active naturals® oat
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there is a for-profit school that was a disaster, the federal government cut off its access to federal loans. it has left people with thousands of dollars in debt while going under and not really giving them much to show for it. you have nine attorneys general calling on the department to forgive those student loans.
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should the department forgive the loans? >> we continue to be very concerned with the issues and met with the young people in the last two weeks and looked closely to see what the right thing is to do. not just in this situation -- >> i mean, that is a non-answer -- >> it is very, very closely, and again talking to young people who have been negatively impacted. and for me, it's not just about those individuals. it is about where you have bad actors for far too long allowed to do what they wanted. we are clear we are not going to tolerate that. and with whatever push we get, we're fine with that. >> secretary of education arne duncan, when appreciated on that, discussed the corinthian colleges, for years that process was the subject of state and federal investigations and had been accused of luring students in with false promises and predatory student loans.
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they closed the remaining campuses in what was one of the largest college shutdowns in american history. now, the department of education are looking into debt loans and forgiveness. until now, about 16,000 students, those that attended schools that suddenly closed in april were eligible for debt forgiveness. the new policy allowed them to receive debt forgiveness if they were victims of recruiting practices that were not legal. this department included that the students applied for and received the debt relief that could add up to thousands. students defrauded by corinthian are looking at all loans and forgiveness. as the secretary of education
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said you would have to be made of stone not to feel for the students. some of these institutions have brought the idea of payday loans into education. >> 50 years ago they broke down >> 50 years ago they broke down barriers and transformed a generation. today, they're using technology to do the same. join me for a special msnbc presentation, on driving change and communities. a growing hope special, live from oakland friday, june 19th.
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so let me be clear. today we are not taking actions against police officers. we are taking actions for the people. we believe that we are on the right side of history. and that our actions are a long human and civil rights tradition.
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>> all right, more than six months after a rookie cleveland police officer shot and killed 12-year-old tamir rice, as rice played with what was a toy gun in a park, a group of citizens are literally taking the law into their own hands. and they're doing so by using a rare ohio statute. they do so by filing an afford to circumvent prosecutors and formally ask a judge to issue a warrant. that afford was implemented regarding tamir rice on charges of murder, aggravated murder, involuntary manslaughter, dereliction of duty. according to one spokesperson as they plan to seek charges told the paper quote, if you look at every other instance it ends up unfavorable to the family.
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he referred to other charges, whether it was darren wilson, or ferguson, or the officer not indicted here in new york. last month in madison wisconsin, where prosecutors didn't charge a white officer for shooting the unarmed teen. while it appears to put pressure on the cuyahoga county prosecutors to file charges against the officers involved in the shooting of tamir rice, but those charges must still go through a grand jury. joining me now, the representative who signed the afford seeking charges. professor, i had never heard of such a thing. how did this come together? >> we were called together by pastor colvin, whose clip you played earlier who launched the press conference. and we are all committed activists, lawyers, civil rights activists.
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we're academics. and we've all been engaged in community around police and community reform and the criminal justice reform. and so we came together and we began to have a conversation. and we have talked about how it is really important for communities to be engaged. for a community to have input and voice. for community to work on behalf of residents, for residents, by the people, for the people. and so we came together and discussed this. and we decided that you know, six months has passed. more than six months has passed. and we have a 12--year-old boy who will not see his 13th birthday. and we see in the video that he died by deadly force at the hands of the cleveland division of police. and six months, we have been waiting, we have been waiting. locally and nationally, people have been waiting. we have been pleading and demanding. we've -- we came to a point that
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what else can we do? how can we move this forward? how can we get this into the criminal justice system? how can we get this case to a place where it's transparent. where we can hopefully see the justice system work even with all its flaws? and so we decided that it was time for those who often don't have voice, the voiceless, to speak. and on behalf of communities, we're speaking. on behalf of tamir rice, who is not here. on behalf of all of those victims who are not here. particularly this case is about tamir rice, but we have to understand that tamir rice is happening in the largest context of issues, in the context of cleveland and elsewhere in the nation. but also in an historical context. and so we said the voice of the voiceless must speak. the community must be engaged. we are going to come together as residents and do this together and stand together.
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>> let me ask you to respond. i saw the statement from the police union in cleveland today. and it was -- strong. let's say. the president of the cleveland police patrolman's association says this. it is very sad how miserable the lives of these self-appointed activists, civil rights leaders and clergy must be. i can't imagine being so consumed with hatred. he went on to say trying to coerce public officials into filing charges is a very dangerous game. what is your response? >> you know, when i hear mob rule because i'm a social justice advocate and scholar, because when i hear mob rule i see and i hear and remember lynching. and i see and hear and remember parties where black bodies were hung from trees. i see and i hear black people losing their lives at the hand of police and at others,
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vigilanties, what we did was we came together, myself, one of eight, came together and decided here is a statute we can use. a legal statute, a legal vehicle to try to use the current democratic system as it exists, with all of its flaws. but with some possibilities we're hoping to actually push forward the arc of justice. so for me, you know, i don't want to get into a virtual discussion with steve loomis. because i think the focus needs to stay on the community and community engagement and community goals and desire and community demand and hurt and anger and pain and frustration. and none of these in a city where we're trying to reform the
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police system, many of us want a transformation of the police system, transform the criminal justice system, is a recipe for trust and transparency and community-building. and for the past, unfortunately, the criminal justice system has not done its best by victims and by people of color. >> let me ask you this, my sense is, obvious there is a lack of trust in this particular set of circumstances, as well. obviously, we've seen generally what happened. we saw what happened to eric garner and michael brown. but am i right to believe that you just don't think this prosecutor's office can independently investigate this? >> we have concerns. >> yeah. >> a law -- the action of today. we have concerns. but again, we have come together as community to say we have to stay engaged and keep our voices loud.
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you know, martin luther king jr. said that direct action created -- policy can't create -- of people holding and speaking power, through power, speaking truth to power, right? and so that is what we're doing. and that is what we want to focus on. and we want to see a criminal justice system that historically has not worked in the most fair, equitable just way for people of color to work, right? and/or for people who are losing lives at the hands of police officers. the police are not above the law. >> rhonda williams, thank you for joining us, that is all for now. rachel madow is next. >> thank you for joining us,
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when he was running for election in 1992, president george h. bush famously flubbed an answer at a presidential debate. he was up there with bill clinton, and ross perot. remember him? a woman at the town hall asked a question about the national debate, and he just didn't understand the question and he started to answer it. and she interrupted him, and said no that was not my question. and the moderator tried to explain what the woman had been asking. and president bush tried again, and the woman was like no, again, you didn't get it. you didn't answer my question, it was very tense and awkward for a long time.

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